Comments on: Java Standards Redux – Spring Licensing Fallout http://www.andygibson.net/blog/article/java-standards-redux-spring-licensing-fallout/ Open Source Projects & Technical Writings Wed, 18 Jan 2012 00:05:55 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Andy Gibson’s Blog » Blog Archives » Why Java should focus on the standards http://www.andygibson.net/blog/article/java-standards-redux-spring-licensing-fallout/comment-page-1/#comment-70 Andy Gibson’s Blog » Blog Archives » Why Java should focus on the standards Mon, 06 Oct 2008 03:55:20 +0000 http://www.andygibson.net/blog/?p=70#comment-70 [...] Java Standards Redux - Spring Licensing Fallout [...] [...] Java Standards Redux – Spring Licensing Fallout [...]

]]> By: Francisco http://www.andygibson.net/blog/article/java-standards-redux-spring-licensing-fallout/comment-page-1/#comment-69 Francisco Mon, 06 Oct 2008 03:41:07 +0000 http://www.andygibson.net/blog/?p=70#comment-69 Well, I have tried, and switching a project that uses Spring between Tomcat, JBoss, Glassfish and Oc4j is a lot easier than doing the same without Spring, removing Spring maybe hard, but why should I remove Spring? Of course it would be nice to have a standard governing Spring, but the sad truth is that right now, there is no standard that allows me to easily switch from Spring to Guice, would be nice to have that, but until then, I find I work less whenever I use Spring, and I can easily switch from expensive app servers (Oc4j,WebLogic,WebSphere) in to free ones (JBoss, Glassfish, Tomcat, Geronimo,Jonas,Jetty) and I do not even need to learn how to write deployment descriptors, because, you know, there is not even an standard way to define a JNDI datasource in a deployment descriptor that works on all application servers, you have to do it different for each application server... unless you are using Spring. I have not tried OpenEJB, but JBoss Microcontainer was really dissapointing (it does not seem to be a priority for JBoss guys, it can not even run two Seam apps in the same application server) and it really heavyweight (And I am not talking about dependencies, I am talking about the time it takes to lauch, around 30 seconds, Spring launches almost instantly). And don't get me started on unit-testing, Spring unit-testing support is easy and fast (compare with the unit-testing support in Seam, initially it looks nice, until you realize it is extreamly slow (more than 20 seconds to launch courtesy of the JBoss Microcontainer). Spring has been there since 2002 and JEE is still far away from being real competition, it may be true that you can (technically) swap them out for alternatives, but the sad fact is that, right now, (actually not technically) only Spring can provide you with the ability to easy swap between different application servers (and do not even get my started on the nightmare that is having shared .jars between application in the same application server instead of having them inside WEB-INF/lib). Regards, Francisco Well, I have tried, and switching a project that uses Spring between Tomcat, JBoss, Glassfish and Oc4j is a lot easier than doing the same without Spring, removing Spring maybe hard, but why should I remove Spring? Of course it would be nice to have a standard governing Spring, but the sad truth is that right now, there is no standard that allows me to easily switch from Spring to Guice, would be nice to have that, but until then, I find I work less whenever I use Spring, and I can easily switch from expensive app servers (Oc4j,WebLogic,WebSphere) in to free ones (JBoss, Glassfish, Tomcat, Geronimo,Jonas,Jetty) and I do not even need to learn how to write deployment descriptors, because, you know, there is not even an standard way to define a JNDI datasource in a deployment descriptor that works on all application servers, you have to do it different for each application server… unless you are using Spring.

I have not tried OpenEJB, but JBoss Microcontainer was really dissapointing (it does not seem to be a priority for JBoss guys, it can not even run two Seam apps in the same application server) and it really heavyweight (And I am not talking about dependencies, I am talking about the time it takes to lauch, around 30 seconds, Spring launches almost instantly). And don’t get me started on unit-testing, Spring unit-testing support is easy and fast (compare with the unit-testing support in Seam, initially it looks nice, until you realize it is extreamly slow (more than 20 seconds to launch courtesy of the JBoss Microcontainer).

Spring has been there since 2002 and JEE is still far away from being real competition, it may be true that you can (technically) swap them out for alternatives, but the sad fact is that, right now, (actually not technically) only Spring can provide you with the ability to easy swap between different application servers (and do not even get my started on the nightmare that is having shared .jars between application in the same application server instead of having them inside WEB-INF/lib).

Regards,
Francisco

]]> By: Andy Gibson http://www.andygibson.net/blog/article/java-standards-redux-spring-licensing-fallout/comment-page-1/#comment-59 Andy Gibson Sun, 05 Oct 2008 04:01:33 +0000 http://www.andygibson.net/blog/?p=70#comment-59 (I don't have a blogger/google account so I posted my response here) While I agree that Spring puts the app server in the code, I'm not sure it is the right answer, or at least, it is the right answer as long as you ignore the reasons it is the wrong answer. There is a reason for having the app server separate, for having container services that you don't need to worry about. I think I have mentioned somewhere here that having spring close to your code is nice and comfy, and also removes a lot of complexity that makes Spring attractive. However, the easy option isn't always the best option, not that I think complex is always right, but once you get Spring that close to your code, it's hard to pull it out again. With the app server supplied services,you can (technically) swap them out for alternatives. Also, note that you can use an embedded EJB alternative (OpenEJB, JBoss Microcontainer) and use it in a Spring like fashion close to your application code and use any web container you want. Plus, when you need to you can go throw it on a big application server. Apparently, there is some move to standardize some of the factors making different EJB containers so incompatible (i.e jndi naming standards). Cheers, Andy (I don’t have a blogger/google account so I posted my response here)

While I agree that Spring puts the app server in the code, I’m not sure it is the right answer, or at least, it is the right answer as long as you ignore the reasons it is the wrong answer.

There is a reason for having the app server separate, for having container services that you don’t need to worry about. I think I have mentioned somewhere here that having spring close to your code is nice and comfy, and also removes a lot of complexity that makes Spring attractive.
However, the easy option isn’t always the best option, not that I think complex is always right, but once you get Spring that close to your code, it’s hard to pull it out again. With the app server supplied services,you can (technically) swap them out for alternatives.

Also, note that you can use an embedded EJB alternative (OpenEJB, JBoss Microcontainer) and use it in a Spring like fashion close to your application code and use any web container you want. Plus, when you need to you can go throw it on a big application server.

Apparently, there is some move to standardize some of the factors making different EJB containers so incompatible (i.e jndi naming standards).

Cheers,

Andy

]]> By: Francisco http://www.andygibson.net/blog/article/java-standards-redux-spring-licensing-fallout/comment-page-1/#comment-50 Francisco Sat, 04 Oct 2008 10:21:19 +0000 http://www.andygibson.net/blog/?p=70#comment-50 Lately I have been playing with Oc4j, Tomcat, Glassfish and JBoss, before that, I had only played with Spring (Tomcat was irrelevant, it was there only to start Spring) and now I have realized why Spring is much more comfortable, even with all the enhancements of JEE5: Spring is ?inside? your application. But with J2EE is the other way around: Read more: http://luxspes.blogspot.com/2008/07/spring-vs-j2ee-application-servers.html Lately I have been playing with Oc4j, Tomcat, Glassfish and JBoss, before that, I had only played with Spring (Tomcat was irrelevant, it was there only to start Spring) and now I have realized why Spring is much more comfortable, even with all the enhancements of JEE5: Spring is ?inside? your application.

But with J2EE is the other way around: Read more: http://luxspes.blogspot.com/2008/07/spring-vs-j2ee-application-servers.html

]]>